Interview
David Hansen
by Art Azurdia
David Hansen has been engaged in pastoral ministry for twenty-nine years. He is the author of four books, including the highly praised The Art Of Pastoring, and twenty-six articles featured in Leadership Journal. Currently serving as Senior Pastor of Kenwood Baptist Church, Dave and his wife, Debbie, are now making their home in Cincinnati, Ohio. Last November we were honored to have Dave at Western Seminary to address The Spurgeon Fellowship and lecture in a few classes. He and I sat down for a couple of hours and talked about his experiences in pastoral ministry.
Art Azurdia: How would you measure the present condition of the American evangelical church?
Dave Hansen: Pastors who come to hear me speak are coming because they know something about me. They come with a theological seriousness about ministry and preaching. In looking at evangelicalism as a whole, however, I would say that the most significant threat comes from evangelicalism itself.
AA: In what form does this express itself? DH: It expresses itself in ministry methods that require no knowledge of theology. They do not depend on the Trinity. They do not depend on any kind of soteriology. They barely even depend on the word of God. You hardly have to have a doctrine of Scripture to operate in these church settings. The seeker churches of today do not really sound any different than the liberal church in which I grew up. |
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AA: Are you referring to the practical outworking of their ministries?
DH: Yes, the practical outworking of their ministries and the way the preaching goes. It is all very bland. I think that a lot of the pastors now who are leading seeker churches are evangelical. I just wonder where the second and third generations will go with it.
AA: “Deeds, not creeds,” to quote Rick Warren?
DH: “Deeds not creeds” was the cry of liberalism infiltrating evangelicalism at the turn of the twentieth century.
AA: What does this do to the soul of a pastor? What does adopting a ministry methodology built on management techniques do to the soul of a man who enters ministry wanting to serve Christ with integrity and faithfulness?
DH: Well, it strips him of all his confidence. It takes him away from the word. But, you know, it is interesting that P.T. Forsyth (writing at the beginning of the twentieth century) and Dietrich Bonhoeffer (writing in the middle of the twentieth century) both say that the busyness of the church is taking pastors away from their real calling. I think pastors wonder what their work actually is. They believe that their work is developing marketing schemes. They believe that it is working on organizing the church and building up programs. They have a hard time believing that sitting down and looking at the text in the Greek is work. It doesn’t seem like work to them and they fear that it does not seem defensible to the congregation. We think that they want us to do work like they do. But I get paid to go out and pray. I get paid to go out and listen to people tell stories. A fellow pastor and I had lunch together recently. When we went to pay the bill, the lady said, “Well, back to work!” I responded, “I don’t work!” She asked, “Are you independently wealthy?” I said, “No, I am a pastor.” Her eyebrows rose. So I continued, “Well, really what I do is I pray, talk to friends, and read the Bible; that’s not work.” Many pastors don’t realize that their real work is to pray, read, and be with people in times of need.
AA: And this is what pastors are neglecting?
DH: Well, it is what they think they are not supposed to do.
AA: Have you ever faced a real temptation to move away from these convictions? Have you wrestled with this or have you always been resolute in terms of what you think a pastor ought to be and do?
DH: Well, at one point I had a crisis of faith. I talk about it in The Art Of Pastoring. I lost my faith, my call to ministry, and I was going to become a psychologist. Now that those things are back in order, thanks be to God, I face a temptation unique to what you might call a middle-sized church. It has been very telling to go from small churches to a church of five-hundred. The other day I heard one leader say, “Well, a pastor can be their counselor or their equipper, but he cannot be both.” I have really thought about that. This would necessitate dropping the counseling, the calling, the caring about people, and having an open door where people can come and visit with me about their lives. And so I am tempted now in a way I was not tempted before. There are books and articles out there saying that pastors must not do pastoral calling . . . even for pastors of small churches! This is terrible.
AA: And substitute it with what?
DH: With what they call vision, leadership, and building up the church’s program.
AA: I frequently hear phrases like “establishing a vision for your ministry,” “developing a purpose statement for your church,” and “establishing measurable goals.” How do these kinds of statements resonate with you?
DH: Well, I have no idea how to set measurable goals. I do not have the slightest idea what one would be. For years I have resisted having a vision statement for the churches I pastored. But now I have people in my church, particularly young professionals of large corporations, who do not know how to operate without a vision statement. So I finally gave in. We have a vision statement, but we have not gotten much beyond that. And the vision statement is a good one, but it’s not a slogan. Many vision statements now are slogans. We recently went to the South for a family funeral and were driving through Mississippi, the heart of the fundamentalist belt. So many of the churches have slogans such as, “A friendly place to be!” Nothing about Christ or the word was apparent.
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