Interview
James Earl Massey
by Art Azurdia
(Continued from Page 2)
AA: You strike me as a person, Dr. Massey, who has never stopped learning. It’s one of the things I really admire about you. What are you still learning about preaching after sixty years?
JEM: One thing that is crystal clear to me – which experience has taught me - you can never master the art of preaching. It is always something toward which you are working, so that sermonizing is always a work in progress. You leave the pulpit saying, “Well, I flunked that time, but I’ll try again. Maybe next time I’ll get it right.” One of my mentors, Howard Thurman, used to say, “There is a word that God has been trying to say through me, and three-fourths of the time I just have not gotten it straight.” One year, I was preaching at Eastern Mennonite University for the Staley Lectureship. On the evening of my last sermon, I had to leave immediately after the service to catch a plane, so I was timing myself very carefully. The week had been so productive for many of those in attendance that they lined the aisle way as I was coming down out of the pulpit with the campus minister because they wanted to shake my hand. And so, I took a moment just to touch them as I was going by. I noticed a young lady who was standing out in the vestibule (or the narthex as it’s called in some places) watching me as I was greeted by everybody. She didn’t shake my hand, but stood off to the side. When I approached her and greeted her she said, “I’m praying for you.” (Did you notice the tone I used?) I responded, “I’m grateful for that. Thank you.” She continued, “I’m praying that God will keep you humble.” I again thanked her. I realized immediately that she was probably from some group where the minister was often given accolades, and was wondering whether I needed to be told not to take this too seriously. I appreciated what she said as I understood from where she was coming. But if she only understood that whenever I preach I always feel I messed up and need to work harder to get it right the next time she might have had a different tone. But I thanked her nevertheless. It is possible for preachers to lose their bearings and think that they are really great if the invitation is responded to with seekers or if, in some settings, the shouting is great and the amens are very vociferous. I understand all of that, but I haven’t needed any of that. In my pastorate I wanted people to hear me.
AA: Dr. Lloyd-Jones says, “In my life I’ve really only preached three times . . . And, on each occasion I was dreaming.”
JEM: I like that very much.
AA: I very much enjoyed the book, Preaching In Black And White. The dialogue between E.K. Bailey and Warren Wiersbe is excellent. In your view, what are the lessons (generally speaking) that Anglo preachers need to learn from their African American brothers? And then I’d like to flip the question: What are the lessons African American preachers need to learn from their Anglo brothers?
JEM: I think those who are from a different tradition than the African-American preacher, (although African American preaching is not monolithic), can glean two primary things: 1) Freedom of expression or expressiveness; abandoning oneself to one’s message; and, 2) Trusting the people to respond as they feel to respond. When we trust the people to respond where they feel to respond, it doesn’t throw us off base if they say an “amen” when we’re in the middle of a paragraph. I remember having an Anglo minister in my pulpit when I was in Detroit. After having made a good point one of the members said, “Say that again!” It startled him. She said he turned and looked at her, so she nodded to him in order to say, “Go on and say it again!” She was responding as she felt, but he was not accustomed to that. It threw him off base. But as he said it again he regained his composure and it freed him up. So those two things are essential: letting the people respond as they feel to respond and abandoning yourself to the truth you’re seeking to share. Now, I think we can learn from Anglos at the point of being more responsible in planning the sermon before we get to the pulpit, mapping it out more carefully. The average Anglo preacher tends to put a lot of time into what is to be said. Many from our context (African-American) assume that since they know their people they can cut some corners. I don’t think they do this selfishly, but it does shortchange our people if we are not giving the full argument. If we are not giving the full reasoning from the text, if we’re not giving the full stages in the textual development, we’re shortchanging our people. We need to do that rather than assume we can just jump from one aspect of the text to the next without treating the full emphasis that’s in the text. The second thing I think we can learn from Anglo preachers is that we don’t need as much time as we normally take.
| AA: But that’s the reason I like to hang out with you guys! At these conferences we’ve done together people are so concerned to hear the word of God that they’re not sitting there, looking at their watch, saying, “Applebee’s . . . Applebee’s . . . Applebee’s . . . when’s lunch?” And that means everything to me. | In a day when we’ve given ourselves to text messaging, and everything is in such short form, we need to learn the extension of an argument which is what this new generation does not understand well - because the text will always put us into the middle of an argument in the positive sense of the word. |
JEM: I understand, but unless the congregation has been trained that way it’s best not to afflict them. Whet their appetite so they’ll ask for more rather than load up their plate and leave with more than half of it to hide.
AA: Given the fact that good preaching is more often caught than taught, who would you suggest as models to whom aspiring preachers should listen?
JEM: Let me deal first with those who have written rather than those who are on the scene now as known speakers. I’ll tell you why. Those who are entering the ministry now are suffering from some of the lack that is in American education. They do not know how to write, they do not know how to organize, and they do not know how to phrase things. So I would suggest those who are entering the ministry now would learn by reading the great ones of the previous century who have written or whose works in sermon form have been preserved in writing by others. Transcribed sermons ought to be the texts they are studying to learn the art of delivery.
AA: And who would you encourage they read?
JEM: Ralph W. Sockman, George A. Buttrick, and E. Halford Luckock are all wonderful. I would also suggest Harold J. Ockenga, Peter Marshall, and Clovis G. Chappell. All of these men were good organizers. All of them were masters of the English language. In a day when we’ve given ourselves to text messaging, and everything is in such short form, we need to learn the extension of an argument which is what this new generation does not understand well - because the text will always put us into the middle of an argument in the positive sense of the word. Something is being said that carries the burden of truth and all aspects of that argument have to be dealt with in order for the truth to have its major effectiveness. So the young generation needs to have that in particular. A second thing I would suggest is that they study the times in which those whom they are studying had to speak, so that they can see the person’s work in context. And then, if they have any talent at all for preaching, something will click in the brain so that they will be able to transfer what they are learning to their own pulpit. But many do not have the talent and we have to recognize that.
AA: That we can’t put in what God’s left out?
JEM: Yes. Those are the two things I would suggest.
AA: That’s certainly a distinguishing aspect, Dr. Massey, of your own preaching. Of all the things that could distinguish it, there is an overwhelming sense of clarity when you speak - where you’re going and what you’re doing. I think that some of our young folk tend to despise the sense of organization. They think that it’s not authentic and not real. Some might even suggest it’s not spiritual.
JEM: It finally comes to a point rather than beginning with a point in view.
| AA: If you were given one final sermon to preach, and the congregation comprised of pastors and preachers exclusively, what text would you choose and what would you say? | Christ is first and foremost and last in my life. I wouldn’t have been in the ministry if it hadn’t been for Him. |
JEM: I would choose 1 Timothy 1:12-17
(paraphrase):
I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who hath enabled me for that He counted me faithful, putting me in the ministry, who before was a blasphemer - injurious, a persecutor - but I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And His grace and His mercy overflowed for me through the grace and the love which were in Christ Jesus. This saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the foremost. But for this very reason He showed mercy to me that in the foremost He might give an example of His graciousness. To the king immortal, invisible, God only wise, be glory and majesty and dominion forever. Amen.
I haven’t quoted it verbatim, but that is the text I would use because Christ is first and foremost and last in my life. I wouldn’t have been in the ministry if it hadn’t been for Him.
AA: Thanks very much, Dr. Massey.
JEM: You’re welcome, and thank you.
