Interview
Tom Schreiner
by Art Azurdia
(Continued from Page 1)
AA: So you’ve mentioned John Piper and Tim Keller as contemporary models who exemplify what it is to be a pastoral theologian. Do you want to elaborate on that any more, Tom?
TS: Mark Dever and Ligon Duncan are among the many very faithful pastors out there. I think what I see in these pastors is a commitment to truth. They believe theology makes a difference and they’re able to forge a link between theology and the everyday life of the people. I believe it’s because they live it themselves. Their theology affects them. I think you sense that with any great preacher. When you hear Tim Keller, John Piper, or Mark Dever preach, you sense that the message has gripped them first. And so the theology doesn’t remain abstract - it’s contagious. Naturally, not everyone is as gifted as these preachers, but every preacher is to be gripped by what he himself is preaching. I had a person who influenced me in my college years who was very quiet, humble, and meek, but he preached with conviction and power through his personality.
AA: What will the consequences be for the evangelical community, Tom, if pastors refuse to be theologians? The predominant model seems to be a preoccupation with the CEO image; that effective pastoral ministry amounts to a mastery of pragmatic techniques. What will happen to the church of Jesus Christ (and let’s keep it confined to the American scene) if pastors refuse to be serious about the task of theology?
TS: I think we will lose the gospel of Jesus Christ and, if I understand David Wells correctly, we will slowly move into a new kind of liberalism. Perhaps we’re already moving in that direction now, at least in some quarters. I think we see some indications of that with the denial of penal substitution in some so-called evangelical circles. I just don’t understand how some can defend open theism as a viable evangelical alternative. Such theological amnesia is frightening to me.
Having grown up a Roman Catholic, I have recently visited Catholic churches in which I heard better exposition of scripture than in evangelical churches. That would not have happened when I was young. So much of evangelical preaching has been reduced to moralism . . . the “here’s what you ought to do” type of preaching. There is no theology. It’s just, “be a nice person.” Doesn’t that open the door for liberalism for the next generation? After all, liberal people think we ought to be moral people as well. We are not proclaiming the gospel if we teach: “Here are five ways to have a great marriage and here’s how to be a success in business,” or, “here’s how to be psychologically happy.” This is not faithful preaching.
AA: Given the varying demands of the pastoral task, what are some of the steps you would suggest for pastors to steadily enhance their theological development? Do you have any practical suggestions for what pastors might do to maintain a sharp theological mind?
TS: First, every pastor should immerse himself in the scriptures. Study them. Meditate on them. Pray over them. Every pastor should also set aside time to read the greats - the books I was mentioning at the beginning. Don’t ignore reading Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Edwards, Spurgeon, and Martyn Lloyd-Jones. There are many popular books today and we only have so much time. John Piper suggests pastors read for 15 minutes per day. That’s what I did with Calvin’s Institutes. I was out of seminary when I read them. I just put it by my bed and would read before I fell asleep. Slowly, I read the whole thing. Of course, there are good authors today worth reading, but it is important to set aside time to read the greats. Most of them are not difficult to understand.
AA: What are the current theological trends that arouse genuine concern for you?
TS: Open theism concerns me. The denial of penal substitution by some worries me greatly. It seems like there’s a drumbeat against penal substitution and I fear, given our cultural climate, the adverse reaction to it will increase.
AA: If you think about what we’ll be facing five or ten years from now, what are the issues that are going to demand robust theological answers from faithful pastors? What are the issues on which we will have to be absolutely definitive the next five to ten years?
TS: I think penal substitution is one of them. I think justification is another. The debate on justification is growing because of the new perspective on Paul. But I think we’re going to have to articulate clearly what we mean by justification. We so easily forget what the gospel is. And of course, egalitarianism will not go away. It fits the cultural climate. Perhaps homosexuality will become more accepted as well.
