Interview
Tom Pennington
by Art Azurdia
(Continued from Page 2)
AA: How would you describe your own emotional ebbings and flowings through the process of church discipline, especially as you get nearer to the more public steps? Do you face internal challenges or struggles?
TP: Oh, absolutely; there are several things that cause consternation. First and foremost, I want to be so careful to ensure that we're right. I don't want to be disciplining someone in the church when their circumstance doesn't warrant it, when there isn't sin, or there's not provable sin. I don't want to take such a serious step without the confidence that we've done due diligence to discern the truth. If there's any doubt I would rather wait; there's no harm in waiting and praying the Lord would make it plain. That's always part of my soul because I'm a door checker – I check the door three times to make sure it is locked. The other issue I deal with is intense sadness. There is in pastoral ministry, and you know this as a pastor, sadness because you see how a rebellious person’s decision is wrecking his life and the lives of those around him. You know family members, and the church as a whole, are going to be affected by their decisions. I feel an increased hatred not only toward their sin, but toward my own because I see what it does and how it wrecks lives. The experience is a serious and sobering call for self-examination. I don't want to be tolerating an unbroken pattern of sin in my own life while I'm addressing it in someone else's. How hypocritical would that be? Of course we all sin, but are we fighting? Are we repenting? Are we confessing? Are we seeing progress?
AA: It seems to me that the thing we want to avoid is doing this with a sense of self-righteous glee. There's always a sense in which this is done with a broken heart. Something would be intrinsically wrong if someone took a kind of sadistic delight in humiliating people publically or kicking them out of the church.
TP: Absolutely; in fact, if people sense anything but a broken heart and humility when you stand up to mention these people publically, then you've failed. If it is done with a sort of measured coldness, it’s not reflective of the heart of God.
AA: Let's think for a moment about young pastors – guys who are new in ministry. What are the potential landmines you would strongly encourage young men to avoid? What are the typical mistakes they could easily make?
TP: Well, just based on the sheer numbers, I would say that the chief landmine is failing to practice church discipline.
AA: Pastors are being passive?
TP: Yes; they are being passive and ignoring the Scripture. But beyond that let's assume – as I think you're assuming – that these are men who want to do what the Scripture says. Being too rushed in the process would be a significant temptation particularly in our youthfulness. Young pastors need to remember that sometimes details come out in the process of time that were previously unknown. They must be careful to identify the biblical sins and only confront the biblical sins. They need to be able to discern issues of conscience (or lack of wisdom) from actual sin. As has already been discussed, young pastors must also avoid exercising discipline in the wrong spirit or doing it with coldness or callousness.
Beyond these things, young pastors are likely to underestimate the typical response to discipline. When you're young and idealistic in ministry, you assume that because something is biblical, the people to whom discipline is being administered are going to love you. In actuality, they are likely to lash out and attack you, accuse you, make a scene, and threaten to sue the church. Those are all very standard responses when you're practicing church discipline. Early on, that was the biggest shock for me. I had no idea that I would get everything from physical threats to slander in the course of this process. It’s shocking to discover that people will hate you because you're confronting their sin.
A pastor called me recently who was very concerned. It was the first time he'd practiced church discipline and lady being disciplined threatened to show up on the Sunday of church discipline with a scarlet "A" sewn to her dress and a bucket of rocks for people to throw, alluding to John 8!
AA: Finally Tom, , would you please talk about a discipline situation that ended in repentance and restoration?
TP: I've seen that twice this year. I mentioned one earlier that culminated in true conversion. The Lord used the discipline process and the death of a friend to bring the couple to Himself. I look out now on Sunday mornings and see them sitting there and learning the truth, growing and prospering. That is very encouraging. Another man was pursuing the divorce of his wife with no biblical grounds, by his own admission. After the third step, when we were prepared to send the fourth step letter, he came back and said that he was going to take divorce off the table and was going to be reconciled to his wife. Based on the history with this man we have every reason to believe that is true. He's been honest with us at every stage, he's never tried to deceive us as to what his intentions were; it looks like this is the real thing. He's contacted the attorney and withdrawn the divorce papers, and has made overtures to his wife to get back together. At the next communion service, Lord willing, we will be welcoming him as well.
AA: So church discipline is a means of grace?
TP: It is an expression of God’s grace to His people.
AA: Thank you for the time, Tom; thank you for the insights. I appreciate them very much
TP: Thanks for giving me the opportunity.
